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Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
7
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Posted - 2012.09.08 16:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL:DR - Changing the voting system to trivialize votes will just anger the people that are invested in making the game better and insure we affect the game more. CSM will be shuffled, and it will be made up of people who care about fixing the game rather than fixing and election.
Alright, so the CSM as a whole has decided to pitch an idea to some of the most devious, intelligent, and outright evil minds in the gaming world. They want to "adapt the voting system to get better representation" or so is the spirit of the idea, but they do so poorly. You've seen throughout the past 5 or so pages that everyone that plays eve with any real desire to influence the game will find a way to influence it. Within minutes of this post diplomats and strategists were already thinking of ways to make this work to their advantage. However, instead of just gaming the system, since you can be punished for doing so now, they chose to reveal the logical flaws in this system. Yet these same individuals "the concerned" are the ones that will be ignored in this new system of voting unless we game it, and it's more than mildly offensive that a "meet this quota and it doesnGÇÖt matter" system was even concocted.
This system will make it so that we as a whole must endeavor to do so in a new and creative way but rest assured, as these same gamers represent the most "concerned" individuals we will game you. The system will be explained, and the holes will be found, as they already have been. Then the diplomats, because those actually exist in this game, will sit down together and figure out how to make the same people that the CSM is so against getting elected take their jobs then surprisingly do them better.
I promise if this goes through it wont be the end of Eve, it wont be a 'change for the better" instead it will just be a further reflection that the b******* individuals are simply too lazy to actually vote, and the ones that want to will do so, but considering how the CSM tried to game us, it's only fair that we return the favor. Really sit down, do some actual work on something that affects the game and not the seat of prestige that you all currently hold. You want to know what the concerns are of the player base, read the forums, hell use local in system to find out. Communicate, plan, evaluate, test, re-evaluate, and release. That's the process, it's not hard. This is the communication, this system is terrible because it trivializes players, and is just as easy as any to game.
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Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2012.09.08 17:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
You know, something to consider, Look at this post, look at who has posted, and look at the likes, from those derive who actually cares about the CSM and voting. Wow, looks like we've just accomplished a huge goal for voting reform, we know who votes, who gives a ****, and who doesn't know their Back side from a hole in the ground.
Now that we've covered that, we can move on to more important things. How are those POS changes coming? How about the rebalance of Null/Low/High? Have we made any ground on attending to the concerns of the WH space? Have we improved the new player experience? Is there any chance of not punishing players for past misdeeds because they told you about an issue, then when you ignored it, they gamed the system, and proved you incorrect? Finally as a last question, what is the next serious goal for the CSM? |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
10
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Posted - 2012.09.08 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh and as to how to get players to vote, three things:
First: Send everyone in Game an Evemail that it's time to vote
Second: Annoy people reminding them it's time to vote. (Splash updates on the loading screen, propoganda videos etc.)
Third: Hold the Election. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
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Posted - 2012.09.08 18:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
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Posted - 2012.09.08 18:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Remnant Madeveda wrote:Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known. I would imagine before the people come in (near voting season) the thread would be long dead, and anyone who tries to bring it up will find it locked for "necro". As long as we never not post and keep it up, perhaps not, but there's months to go for us to get tired.
There are rules about that though... |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13
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Posted - 2012.09.08 18:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm assuming they will at least have to exlpain how they want this system to work. That thread will also go for a fair few pages if they decide to go with this model. So in short, there will be exposure, even if we have to figure out creative ways to make it happen. The problem will of course be the TL:DR groups, but meh I assume most of them wont vote anyways. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2012.09.08 19:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Given that in Eve the meta-game is as important or moreso than the game itself it seems silly to believe the current system is flawed at all. If you really consider what goes on and how much time is put into the work of gaining recognition as a competant individual then you see these people, generally, deserve to be on CSM if they are elected. With that being said after losing a member of their team the current CSM appears to have lost an extra bit of guidance that would potentially allow them to be more cohesive, competant, and perhaps effective as a team.
So, my contention is leave the system as it is, and attempt to educate the playerbase you are so concerned with being underrepresented. If they are concerned about it at all, and it's not just sockpuppet arguements, then they will get people on CSM. I mean they keep saying that highsec is where most of the game is, if that's the case then it clearly should be able to dominate any election. Jesus, you'd think someone might realize that and make a voting system based on each person who cares having an opinion and using it to elect an official without any extra bullshit. You know a true democracy..oh wait...
This is a simple form of democracy, it does not need to be ******* rocket science. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2012.09.08 19:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Andski wrote:it's perfectly fine because our chosen candidate still gets in right?
I mean sure it makes only three fifths of the votes for the top guy relevant in this "candidate designated STV" but that's ~democracy~ Yeah, they gotta make sure "we" never get in otherwise we'll play the same game and then next time they'll get no one in.
I think everyone is forgetting two important variables, CFC and HBC bad at Eve.. good at politics. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2012.09.08 19:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Until we get banhammered or the thread gets locked.. but I suppose we would just make a new discussion thread then eh? |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
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Posted - 2012.09.09 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Perception is a powerful tool in politics.
"People are stupid, they will believe what you tell them because they think it is true, or they fear it is." ~ Terry Goodkind
While this sentiment comes from a fantasy novel it is essentially the backbone of politics. If I as a candidate were to run, on the grounds of being a new player to Eve, and having experienced in small part all different aspects of the game then I would run as a true representative of a small but growing population in the game true? Let's have a little experiment.
Well letGÇÖs say that I pander with amazing abandon to the Miners, Industrialists, and Something for nothing groups in high sec. Well what would my platform be? Simple, null and low sec are Evil! They bully us all into being here, and make it "not fun" to try to play the game! I mean just look at them PVPing all the time, and blowing up my "hard earned" ship. Clearly brethren of high sec, we must fight this evil. If you elect me to CSM as a new player representative then I promise I will push CCP to make high sec as safe as it should be! I mean CONCORD would never let someone fly in their space with guns active right? So why not push to get that fixed. Elect me and I'll make it happen. Further, I promise if you elect me I will argue Industrialization for high sec. I mean clearly you must realize that the best place for doing anything would be the "most developedGÇ¥ So with that being the case, I will pressure CCP to increase refining efficiency in high sec, and reduce manufacture times to an all time low. It is after-all the best space, the most developed space, and the safest space. Elect me for your CSM 8 rep.
In this platform I've given examples of things that I know the care bears want. They want high sec to be I win space, and they want a way to "play" eve where there is no risk but all reward. I've used a few very obvious phrases that most would say are clich+¬ and base, but they will work to stir masses. Why, because I've shown them a place where their goals can be accomplished. I've done things in this "platform" that politicians of ages have done to great effect, I've created a common goal, a common enemy, and made myself seem harmless, but firm. I've lied, and given them what they think to be true, people are stupid.
Now as I've stated I'm new to Eve, my reg date is just this summer past, but I do know a thing or two about games and about how to keep them interesting. This game is interesting because it's risk versus reward in a place where you know to be cold and heartless, Space.
You don't come to Eve online to mine, play industry, and log off. You come to Eve because space is interesting, you know it's dangerous, and you know there's a pay off for taking the risks you will take to succeed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo
This is a prime example of the 'key selling points" of Eve. You will affect everything in space, with just one voice, just one action, just one moment in time. Space is a cold dark place, where risk is there. If you want to play a safe game there are tons in the market.
You don't think one person matters; I propose a name to you The Mittani.
Checkmate. |
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Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
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Posted - 2012.09.09 11:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Remnant Madeveda wrote:~ Terry Goodkind This author can't write believable characters to save his life.
True story, but he did offer a single good quote that I've used with wonderful effectiveness. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
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Posted - 2012.09.09 12:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:You can do this under the current system, and under CD-STV. You are no worse off. But they will be better off under the candidate nominated STV, since the dozen or so hisec joke candidates they fielded soak up some of the "25% wasted votes that elected noone" and feed them to the CFC's actual candidates, further cementing their hold and perhaps boosting that "first of the bottom 7" position to the "bottom of the first 7". Which has more influence: someone sitting on the other side of a NDA-covered forum, or someone sitting in the same bar as CCP Soundwave et al merrily drinking away until 4am in the Icelandic night?
Beer, the ultimate friend of persuasion, next to perhaps tequila, depending on the individual of course. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
16
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Posted - 2012.09.09 12:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
From reading this entire thread I believe the criteria they are basing this off of is :notgoons: and :fucktest:. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2012.09.09 12:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Oh I know I propose the following as CSM 7's stance. http://soundcloud.com/shutupandshave/****-goons (explicit language) |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 13:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nah I'll leave that one to the highsec carebears that are whining "OMG These mining nerfs are trash!" (In regards to the most recent barge changes.) |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2012.09.09 13:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:This really is minorities are us. Have you guys considered working for lobby groups. Next you could accuse the CSM of racism or sexism or maybe of being a foul polluter of the planet.. 
Also.. if we are minorities are us, why do we even need a change to the system? I mean if we're the minorities then what the **** would it matter that the current system is as it is? It wouldn't, because we the "minorities" wouldn't have any say in who makes the CSM would we? Interesting... tell me more about how we're the minority. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 13:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yet again I'm forced to come back and re-type the same thing. The problem is not the system, it is the voters. If you CBF to give a damn about the goings on and the meta of Eve then we don't need to hold your hand all the way to the voting platform. Candidates make announcements if you want votes. CCP, keep using splash screens for weeks leading up to CSM elections. Then finally post a stickied :HOW TO VOTE FOR DUMMIES: thread in the Eve O general forum and all the subsequent relevant forums.
If this doesn't fix the problem then well I suppose there's an addage for that, "You can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink." If the horse doesn't want to drink.. let the bastard thirst to death. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 13:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Still comes back to the if they CBF to care we can't make them. Further I did recommend splashscreens, and adverts in game, which reminds me it is impossible to leave local, so...
In any case, it's moot to continue debating the validity of the incompetence of the vast majority of Eve, we need only look to the General forums to bask in it's glory. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 13:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Two step wrote:Haquer wrote:Massive Pubbie wrote:December 2011 Minutes, page 4: "In short, the CSM said that if STV would be implemented it would be heaven for the powerblocks and would basically allow them to dictate every single seat on the CSM" Oh boy, "the CSM" means "The Mittani" now, eh? And here we've had other CSM members tripping over themselves to displace themselves from YOUR use of "we". See, now you are just making it clear that you didn't read the past minutes. Before the most recent minutes, stuff that was said by the CSM was always attributed to "The CSM" or "A CSM member". In that case, yes, it was Mittens (and probably some other folks as well) who thought straight up STV would be an advantage to them.
This is why I liked the summer minutes where it was full disclosure except what was covered by NDA. It gave you an idea of what if anything was being discussed. Strange though that in no point during the summer minutes did the voting for CSM come up, and yet it's been a constant concern. I don't pretend to know though, I'm still just another newbie who likes the meta. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 13:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
My the Ego you have to pretend to know my mind. I prefer if more people vote, hell I'd love for the game to have a fully active playerbase. The sad fact of the matter is it doesn't where the meta game is concerned. CSM is, whether you like it or not, a big part of that Meta. |
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Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 14:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Haquer wrote:
Overvotes for candidates are thrown out. This disenfranchises voters.
Seems fairly understandable to me. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 14:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
So when they change this system we can't be banned for saying I told you so. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
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Posted - 2012.09.09 15:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Xolve wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
The current system is gameable by large organized groups. The example system can also be somewhat gamed; the question is, is it more or less gameable? STV with overvotes clearly is more gameable, but CD-STV may not be (and have the advantage of providing more diverse representation in the lower slots of the CSM).
I think what you fail to realize is the simple fact that the morale majority has always been able to swing the vote, Plenty of people outside of GSF voted for Mittens, simply because he's an effective candidate and can allocate swathes of personal time to CSM matters. If any entity in this game, can have 5000+ active members and coincidentally sway all 5000 of those people to vote for him, then he should be in office, it's basic politics 101. Of course, you must realize even Mittens who is literally the King of Space, has to do more than just snap his fingers to awaken the hive to do his bidding (there needs to be a wordy Jabber Broadcast, and at least a 20 minute speech). Set aside your personal vendetta and your poor play at 'GoonSwarm' as an example (which is just "Hurrrr the largest alliance in the game has alot of votes") and realize that if someone can muster 5000+ votes, that person probably has more of an ear for what's happening and how in the game than the rest of the candidates. So again- is there any reason for this change?
And those speeches are the best ones to hear. I always manage to look forward to the sotg speeches. I'm just hoping that TEST has a speaker that will do something similar. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
19
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Posted - 2012.09.09 17:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
It's not literacy that is our failing most of the time it's a complete disregard for spelling, grammar, and things of that nature. Or it could just be an unwillingness to read every post like it's a ******* term paper for all errors. I mean don't get me wrong proof-reading what you wrote is a good idea, but most people would just skim what they wrote. Thereby probably missing or just auto brain correcting any small errors.
I'm pretty sure we as a whole are literate, but then again :effort:. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
20
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Posted - 2012.09.09 19:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Seleene wrote:If you don't like this initial proposal, counter it with your own and let's see what we can all come up with. My counter-proposal: don't change anything.
This, unless you want to TRY to make voters more aware, that I am okay with. |
Remnant Madeveda
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
20
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Posted - 2012.09.09 19:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Seleene wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Seleene wrote:this is a discussion that needs to be had Why? I explained that earlier. Because CCP threw the original system together with no player oversight. Due to discussions over the past couple of years, CCP is open to evolving the system if players believe that needs to happen. Lord Zim wrote:Seleene wrote:If you don't like this initial proposal, counter it with your own and let's see what we can all come up with. What's wrong with the old system? Maybe nothing. Possibly everything. I guess we will find out.
Well in the past 18 pages we've seen quite a few examples of why this system isn't bad, it's the voters. Now with that being said we've also seen how the proposed potential changes could, and would, be gamed if they were implimented just so we could make a point.
True democracy, when each voice is equal and counts toward an end goal. The best possible outcome in a sandbox environment. |
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